* NEW * Conversation with a secular atheist

After a recent day of preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ at University of Albany SUNY, a young woman left a message to protest our presence at her school, and to voice her disagreement with our message. I do not know if I personally spoke to her while I was there, nor what she looks like, and I think she does not know who I am, except that I was one of the group that preached there. This began a series of messsages back and forth. I thank God for allowing me to share the Gospel with her. I did not respond after her final response. I would have, but we don’t always have to have the laat word. I leave her soul now in the hands of God. May He grant her repentance and saving faith in Jesus Christ. Please pray for her.

 
JD Cooper
cooperj

I was the one standing up to you for several hours at the University at Albany. You are a malicious hate group and you do not belong in a place of learning. I will be spending much of my time this semester ensuring that next time you come here, you will either not be allowed on campus, or will face severe opposition once you get there. I sincerely hope that you re-evaluate the hateful things you said at my university on monday. I would like to remind you that this university is home to may of the students who attend there, and there is nothing loving about breaking into someone’s home to threaten them with eternal torture. My heart breaks for your children, your congregation, and every student who is assaulted by your bile.
Hoping to never see you here again,
JD

On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 10:37 PM, don Karns  wrote:

I was one of the group of preachers who obtained a permit, from your school and stationed ourselves at the location specified by your school, and then spoke of what God has revealed to man through the Bible. We did speak of sin, righteousness, and judgment of God, but we also spoke of God’s love, Grace, and mercy. To prohibit free speech at  public venues would be to discard the US constitution, or at least remove what it says a about free speech or freedom of religion. As it was, you were free to speak against what was said or to walk past. God, and not me, threatens those made in His likeness, with eternal punishment. But He also invites those He has created in His image to enter into a relationship with Him, and offers eternAl life to all those that repent and believe the Gospel. And so it is God, His Word, His judgment, punishment, and plan of salvation you stand against. How can we escape if we neglect so great salvation? It was first spoken by the Lord and was confirmed by those who heard Him. God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is condemned already. This, not because we came to your campus, but because being made as God’s image bearer, you and all men have missed the mark, and worshipped and served the creation and not the creator, who is blessed forever.
And so God now commands all men everywhere to repent
for He has appointed a day in which –
He will judge the world in righteousness
By the man He has appointed.
He has provided proof of this to everyone
By raising Him from the dead.
Jugment, punishment, and salvation are all of God. I am not your enemy. I plead with you in Christ’s behalf,
Be reconciled to God.

From: Jessica Cooper Add to Addresses Block Sender
Date: Monday, October 6, 2014 12:24 PM
To: don Karns  Add to Addresses
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You are a hate group. What you call love is nothing of the sort. You are prejudiced, malicious, hateful, and petty. If your god believes as you say he does, than god is a bigot, and I oppose him. If god will condemn me for the way he made me, then I have no love at all for him. What you preach is hateful. It is the most hateful, evil doctrine this world has to offer and I will fight it until my dying breath. Many public institutions prevent hate groups from speaking on their campuses, and I hope my University will see your group for the evil bile it really is. Regardless of my University’s decision, there will always be students here who oppose you, and recognizes your preaching for what it is. I hope you know that your preaching is not making converts. You don’t bring anyone to your horrible religion by threatening them with hell. To the contrary, my secular student group membership increased hugely the day you came to campus, because the student body at this campus is so uniformly opposed to hate speech and anti-science rhetoric.

There is no eternal life. There is no sin, and there is no god. You are wasting your life believing this ancient lie. 
I sincerely wish you good health, good fortune, and good luck escaping the evil cult you have found yourself in,
 
JD Cooper
President & Founder, SUNY Albany Secular Student Alliance.
   

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Don Karns  wrote:

I understand that you and I disagree about many things. But why are you So angry and hateful? Don’t you realize that – to silence others  might restrict your own views. Thankfully at this time close minded people can’t silence disagreeing viewpoints in public Places. So if your group or administration would restrict freedom or religion they would still have to deal with the law as it exists. Maybe there are some students on campus who still have feelings of guilt and shame and have a great need to hear about the way of peace with God and salvation. The like-minded thoughts of your group is still a small but vocal circle. We enjoy visiting Albany. The students there are open about their belief or lack of belief. We don’t consider them a lost cause or a waste of time. I would encourage you to go to sye’s website www.proofthatgodexists.org and ask him to debate. 
It makes sense that one who is  certain God does not exist could discuss this calmly and rationally. Debate is not my strong suit. To me, when you say”there is no God”
You make an absolute statement while denying absolutes. 
In the same manner if you were to { say } there are no words, I would not debate that; it would be senseless.
So thanks for responding, I hope you can keep calm. I am not your judge nor your enemy. You are not the only one with this worldview. I meet professing atheists all the time. I don ‘t get Angry, or hate them, I love them, and the same for you.

don Karns Sent from my iPhone

From: Jessica Cooper  Add to Addresses Block Sender
Date: Monday, October 6, 2014 7:51 PM
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I’m not hateful, but I am angry. I’m angry that you can come to my campus, threaten my friends with eternal torture, and leave thinking you did something “loving,” I’m angry that you accuse me of attempting to drown out freedom of religion and freedom of speech when you are the ones who want to ban the teaching of real science, stop people who love each other from getting married, and force your cult onto everyone who doesn’t believe. All in the name of “love.” The only reason anyone would be feeling guilt and shame on the day you came to our campus is because you guilted and shamed them. I will not restrict freedom of speech on public streets and buildings, but when you come onto U Albany campus, you come into the homes of thousands of students who do not deserve to be threatened and jeered at as they go about their lives. I am an atheist. I am very happy and I don’t need your god. Furthermore, I don’t need a hateful religion that science has utterly and completely decimated. Especially not one that comes into the homes of young people to threaten them with eternal torture. I wish I could save you from this ideology. I wish you would respond to the evidence, I wish there were any facts at all that could convince you that the evil book you follow is a mass of lies. But  I can’t do that. Because apologists like Sye and yourself will not accept evidence. They won’t tell us which facts will prove them wrong. It’s clear which facts would prove evolution wrong (fossils in the wrong strata, children with no genetic similarities to their parents, an animal giving birth to an animal of another genus) but the “god” proposition is unflasifiable. It’s also a proposition which ruins people’s lives every single day (gay teens kicked out of their homes, children denied medical care, women denied agency, careers, the right to be free). So I damn well have a right to be angry. 

JD Cooper

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 11:22 PM, Don Karns  wrote:

OK,
I m glad to hear you want speech restricted only on public campus property and not at all public spaces I don’t see the difference, but you obviously do. Public universities have always been a place where different world views are debated. Before your time the radicals and socialists were always protesting. UCal Berkely even has a metal plate inscribed “on this spot, no power on earth can restrict a persons speech. U Va was founded by T. Jefferson, and the school charter, specifies that it will be a school known for free speech and differing views.
This hate speech talk,
Could you please,
Tell me what the standard is, and who sets the standard.
Is the Bible hate speech
Is the Quran hate speech
Is the university code of conduct hate speech?
Stalin, Mao, and Pol Phot were all atheists, communists – they each murdered millions. So can we agree that atheists can be hateful?
Jesus Christ did not set aside the law, but He did say ” let him who is without sin cast the first stone”. So a true Christian has as his weapon Gods Word, and his faith and the Holy Spirit. 
Obviously there have been many cases where men calling themselves Christians have lived contrary to Jesus teaching. But that doesn’t make His teaching wrong, and it doesn’t  mean that those who follow His teaching are wrong. I love science. I spent my life in engineering, working in the Navy’s nuclear power program 6 years then 28 years at Surry Nuclear power station. I love the order found in studying science and how we can use it to learn how to use what exists and invent, predict. and harness our environment.  But we can’t create anything  ex nihilo.
My faith allows for this ,
1) It is logical that God can create things from nothing  
God is omnipotent
2) it is logical that God can reveal things to His creation
3) God’s revelation has been preserved because God acts to preserve it
I see nothing illogical in believing this 
You obviously have a different line of thought as far as creation, order, logic. 
If you were to think through all this, would your line of thought be logical, or emotional -?
Thanks, I asked Sye if he would consider a debate. He was open to scheduling one. Would you or your secular club be interested in having your spokesman for your group or bringing in a spokesman for secular humanism or atheism?
You are attending what I would describe as the Caesars Palace of university’s. Of all the schools I visit, yours is the grandest. Your school may have the funds to sponsor a debate. 
My faith is not a blind faith nor a line of thought. My life had been changed by God through Jesus Christ , His life, death, and resurrection, and by the Holy Spirit. I fully acknowledge I can not change your mind or anyone else’s mind. Unless God acts, a person will live and die and be judged.
May God grant you repentance and saving faith.
Could I pray for you? You have not spoken of your background. 
Thanks,
Don Karns  
 
Sent from my iPhone
 
 

From: Jessica Cooper Add to Addresses Block Sender
Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2014 3:39 PM
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Three basic things I want to address in this email. One, regrettably, my school does not have the sort of funds to bring someone with the notoriety of Sye to the campus, and my smallish, and quite new student group doesn’t have the influence to set such a thing up at this time.  I really do wish that was a thing we were capable of doing, but it just isn’t right now. Two, also in regards to presuppositional apologetics, I’m actually going to try to help you for a second. Presuppositional apologetics, as it is practiced by Sye and his ilk is very unconvincing to the nonbeliever, because in all cases you must assume god at the outset to make any claims. It’s a non starter. I know that this type of apologetic seems convincing because there is no way for people to counter the apologist without the apologist turning their words around, but most people recognize a circular argument when they see one. Sye fails to define what he means by most of his definitions, and often twists words which do not mean the same things so that they look like equivalents. I encourage you to take a look at his website through the eyes of a nonbeliever and ask yourself some serious questions about whether or not these arguments hold any sort of water. Mr. Bruggencate  is a master of trick questions, to be sure, but all he can prove is that there is a fuzziness about language that makes it easy to trick people. Furthermore, even if you stretch his arguments as far as they can possibly go, they can only suggest that their might be a non-interventionist deist “god,” and make absolutely no attempt to prove that the bible is anything more than a book of fairytales. You will never convert someone with presuppositional apologetics, you will only annoy them. I was asked when your preachers came to campus whether or not I believed in absolutes, and Mr. Bruggencate asks the same questions on his website. He fails to offer the answer I feel most honest scientists and philosophers would give. It’s also the answer which seems most correct in my mind. Absolutes exist as a construct of a mind, while they are not real in any physical sense, they offer us a framework to use to establish how reality really works. Like pixies, just because we can imagine them in our brains doesn’t mean they exist in the world. Thirdly, I think making threats is hate speech. You came onto campus and threatened to torture those who disagree with you. I take issue with your threats of violence. You think it is okay to threaten to threaten young people just because you hide behind the Bible and “god” when you do it. But it’s not okay. You are threatening to burn seventeen and eighteen-year-old children, and I’m sick and tired of people rolling over and letting you do it because you call yourselves people of faith. Even the founding fathers (many of them SECULAR) were opposed to extending the freedom of speech to cover open threats, I’ll link you to the wikipedia page describing the most common exceptions to free speech. Even though I think you’ve also covered false statements of fact and fighting words, my real issue is the making of very serious and grave threats. I can only find solace in the fact that your god is a myth and your threats are completely and totally empty.

If Jesus has changed your life, and this is what he has changed it to, then he is a very malicious and evil man to have done this to you, and to all the people around you. Why bother praying for me? Clearly god does not want me saved or he would send me evidence. And clearly, I don’t want to be saved either. You can certainly pray for me if you like, because I believe you are very literally doing nothing but wasting your time. 
If you would like me to link you to some good refutations of Sye’s version of apologetics, nothing would make me happier, however the refutation above is just my own personal take on one of the things I was asked when your group was terrorizing my campus. 
Best wishes,
JD

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 10:15 PM,  Don Karns wrote:

Well now, you declare things so much more clear and understandable when you are not angry. My name is don. i travel all around the country at many schools and share the Gospel. i hope to this message to three points, even if it challenges me to be so brief.
1) pre suppositional apologetics will not save anyone. The intent is to demonstrate the inconsistency of a non Christian worldview. There is no law or requirement to be consistent. It is only to be hoped and prayed for that if a person would see inconsistencies in their thoughts, then we could share the Gospel with them, so they don” run to Buddism or pantheism or any other ism.
You say Sye assumes (presupposes) God from the beginning to make any claims. The atheistic worldview also presupposes somethings before they can make any claims. All worldviews start with what they believe or presuppose. The line of thought is that if you would take your worldview and examine it thoroughly, it would prove to be logical and comprehensible. And if it can not be at all times logical and comprehensible, if, you desired to be consistent, you would discard that worldview. that is all the apologetic does. It does not speak of Jesus or salvation. The Christian worldview deals with the natural and empirical and with the supernatural and metaphysical. All worldviews must concede the human mind encounters both physical revelation and metaphysical information.  All men use not only their five senses but they also know from induction and inference. If you cling to a worldview that excludes anything you can not use your five senses to validate, you could not honestly proceed because something must interpret what is sensed.
2) I have never nor any of my friends made a personal threat, in fact as Christians we pray for those who curse us. But if we declare what God has said, it is meant as a warning. We preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and He did not come into the world to condemn it but that the world might be saved by Him. I understand you don”t want to be saved. And i know i can not change your mind. So as I pray for you i pray that God would soften your heart and make Himself known to you, and make yourself known to you. We don’t threaten anyone we love them and want the best for them. The Bible offers warnings, so that we are without excuse. God doesn’t just punish, but He warns and He loves and He saves.
3)i will continue to pray for you. i don’t think you are a waste of my time. i think you are made in God’s image and i think you have a value that come from this, and it is not from how rich or smart or popular you are. And that is why i can honestly say i love you. But i can say i like you too. You are very smart and not timid about stating what is on your mind.
don

  From: Jessica Cooper  Add to Addresses Block Sender
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Don, 

I’m certainly still angry. I think what you do is the closest thing you can do to actual evil. The gospel is an extremely malicious and awful document, and I would very much enjoy never hearing of that particular brand of nastiness again.  Presuppositional Apologetics fails utterly to demonstrate anything at all. Firstly, as I stated in my last email, it doesn’t have anything at all to do with the bible or christianity. It fails not only because it processes false equivocation and the vagueity  of language as proof, but also because it fails utterly to even mention the thing which it attempts to prove. My mother and I sat down together last night and went through the entire process of working our way through Sye’s website. We pointed out so many leaps of logic, but the one that stuck out the most firmly is when Sye defines “god” as the laws of logic and morality, then in the next page immediately jumps to the immoral and illogical Christian god. I understand that these types of games are amusing and affirming to those who are already Christians, but anyone with an alternative view can see that these types of logic games are extremely fallacious and jump to entirely unwarranted conclusions. This apologetic is a total and complete failure. It’s not persuasive and it’s not evidence. 
I disagree that “metaphysical” exists if your definition of “metaphysical” includes “supernatural” or “spiritual.” These things are simply chemicals in your mind. YOU are simply chemicals in your mind. That’s a beautiful thing. It’ exciting that we come from such basic and simple material, yet, through evolution and constructed social meaning-making we can become a species capable of doing the sorts of things that humans do. (science especially) I reject the metaphysical, the spiritual, the supernatural, we are all material. You’re an animal, you’re a collection of chemicals, you’re just matter, and that’s what makes it impressive that you can exist in the way that humans do. Science is how we determine what is real, and our senses are a huge asset in understanding the world around us. Your subjective emotional response to ancient fairy tales is not a good way to know things about the world. It’s a TERRIBLE way to know anything.
Further, I was there when you made threats. I saw you make them. You made those threats toward me and my classmates. Telling me your imaginary friend is going to torture me forever if I refuse to worship him is the same thing as saying that you will do the torturing yourself. That’s an evil thing to do, and I am deeply offended that you call it love. Ask yourself this, if God wanted us to be saved, why would he sacrifice himself to himself in order to forgive us? Why not just forgive us? In relation to the “logical” validity of your god, that’s nonsensical. If God is omnipotent, can he create an object he can’t lift? Can he create a god more powerful than himself? Can he eliminate evil? If he can, and doesn’t then he is evil himself, no question about it. God fails logically on so many levels that pre-sup apologetics doesn’t even begin to address. 
In short, it’s all bullshit. Total lies that you believe because you were brainwashed as a child. That’s it. Plain and simple. If god loved me, he would give me a single shard of evidence that he existed. If he loved me, than he would not have created hell, and condemned me to it just for being who I am. If god created me, then he created me an atheist. If god exists, he knows what would convince me, and yet never shows me. If god exists then he is a god that wants me to go to hell. And I would much rather be tortured for eternity than worship that monster. 
Please reconsider your decision to obey this evil concept, 
JD 
 
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:19 PM, don Karns  wrote:

OK, so I guess you are still angry.
I am not a debater, I am more of a Gospel preacher who would have you know of the goodness and kindness of God
I am not God, and because of that I may not know everything , so then because I don’t understand  God’s reason for allowing evil, it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have a logical reason for allowing it.
You say you, all we, are just animals, a collection of chemicals, just matter. How then do you account for making these judgements of evil, deliciousness, nastiness, or beautiful?  By your line of thought I am simply doing whatever my chemicals have caused me to do. Why would you be angry, or speak badly of me. Is it only the certain chemicals that please you. If you want to judge me you must declare which chemicals are the right ones.
When you reject all that is not material then you reject logic, math, intuition, not to mention love mercy and grace.
Science is knowledge– but ” we ” determine what is real. The scientist is the one who interprets the facts. How he makes the interpretation will be dependent on his “presupposition “, or how he makes his interpretation.. He must presuppose his senses are valid. He must presuppose there is order and not chaos and that all things are not random. All these things he presupposes, None of them are material, yet without them he can not proceed.
Your question of why God does not simply forgive us, that is the foundation of what we know of God. God is good, and He rules by decree. Ex) the wages of sin is death. If God were to simply forgive, He would have acted contrary to His decree, against His nature of goodness. So God has provided a way that He can reconcile us to Himself demonstrating, not abrogatng His decree. For your sin and for mine, there must be a death. The good and logical God decrees it. You will either take your sin to the grave and be judged by a good God and be condemned by God (not me ), or you will take your sin to the cross, so that Jesus Christ would die in your place and because God accepted this perfect sacrifice and raised Him from the dead, you could have forgiveness. By His own decree God is just to justify the one who receive His Son by faith. God has given you the same evidence He gave me. The only difference is that for me  a time in my life came when I saw my need and called upon Him. Please know that the Gospel means good news. God exists and He is a good God and He provided for you a sacrifice to atone for your sin. For you to reject this is not a reflection of God;s character, it is a demonstration of your hardened heart . I am glad to hear you checked out Sye;s website. Maybe you both could spend a time in Paul’s letter to the Romans chapter one. That is the foundation for his and my argument . You may see there why and how we come to know what we know. I am sorry but I just can’t understand your standards or meet them. By your standard the Gospel is malicious and evil. Do you feel that you are the standard-setter.
Thanks, you really cause me to ponder God;s goodness in my heart.

Don

  From: Jessica Cooper Add to Addresses Block Sender
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It bothers me when you say you are not a debater. It indicates to me one of two things. Either you don’t care wether or not your faith is consistent with reality, morality, and science, and prefer to believe it without evidence. Or you believe that a simple argument with a person several decades your junior might destroy the faith on which you’ve built your life. So either your faith is so weak that you chose not to argue it for fear it will be destroyed. Or you do not care wether or not your faith is true and have never made an effort to validate it using facts. That’s disturbing to me for obvious reasons. 

In answer to your silly question about “doing what your chemicals tell you to do” I am forced to conclude that you are entirely ignorant of all modern biological and psychological science, perhaps willfully so. A great deal of what you do is governed by your biology. The desire for sex and food, sneezing, breathing, digestion, all of these things are things that you do which are almost entirely motivated by biological factors. Secondarily we have psychological factors. Sometimes people do things because they are mentally ill or have damage to the physical parts of their brains, or imbalances in chemical processes in their brains, or just to satisfy psychological needs. When we view the processes of the human brain through scans and through surgery, medication and experimentation, we can watch these processes happening. We know that the brain’s and body’s needs govern the decisions we make and the actions we take. It’s established science, very easily understood at a layman’s level. Further, as a social species, we also have social needs which take precedence. Through evolutionary processes, we’ve developed a system of how to treat and interact with one and other that best benefits the individual and the species. Those processes are what allow us to be social and gives us what a layman would understand as a “mind” which rationalizes and weighs outcomes based on our physical psychological and social needs. 
I reject nothing by being a materialist, except the supernatural. Logical thinking can be accounted for by its benefit in evolutionary biology. Intuition is the same. Math is simply just a system for describing material reality- so I’m not even sure what you’re getting at there. These are all processes that can occur in the human brain due to our impressive ability to use our physical biological brains. Love is a chemical emotion, I can give you the chemical compound that induces that feeling. Mercy is an action that can only be done because of its complex social benefits and our own evolutionary biology. and grace is a silly Christian word that means nothing to me unless you’re describing the impressive feats of a dancer or gymnast, which are only possible through their physical bodies and often decades of hard work.    
God cannot both be good, and be a child-torturer, genocide-er, rapist, murderer, thought-policer and slave-holder. These are evil things to be. Not good ones. I shouldn’t have to explain to you why these things are evil, and you and I know very well that god does each and every one in the bible. I refuse jesus’s sacrifice if he made such a sacrifice, because scapegoating is also evil. If you judge god by the standards he sets for humans in the bible, he fails to be moral, if you judge him by modern standards of morality he fails to be moral. I daresay if you judge him by any moral standard the human race has used (besides the disgusting apologetic of god= good always) the god of the bible fails. The gospel is primitive scapegoating. It is NOT good by any rational standard. It is monstrous. Your statement that I should read Paul’s letter to the Romans is silly. I have read the Bible, I’ve read many versions of the bible, it’s why I condemn the doctrines found there. Unlike you, I have actually read the documents I’m criticizing. They are evil by any standard worth applying. I may not set the standard, but all standards I have applied give the biblical god a failing grade. Always. 
When you say god condemns me what you mean is that you condemn me. You wish that it were possible that I could be tortured simply for being human, and that your imaginary friend would do it once I died. Thankfully, the bible is a lie. When I die, nothing will happen, you and I will both just be gone. The only difference is that you would have wasted your life capitulating to a pretend dictator in service of the lie of eternal life. And I would have used my life to improve the world for my decedents, and their friends and family, and the human race in general. 
In short, god is evil (but thankfully pretend), we are all simply matter, and that’s a beautiful thing. 
JD
 
On Oct 10, 2014 10:11 PM, “Don Karns wrote:

Greetings Again. 
You have much to say.
1) I do not mind debating, but my desire is to see you become a child of God with God as your father and not your judge and that is what He offers in Jesus and what He did on the cross. 
However, God has given you all the revelation needed, and you continue to suppress it. You continue to use the sense and reasoning God created you with without giving Him glory or thanking Him.
2) to debate we would have to agree that words have a meaning, and then we would have to agree to their meaning or a discussion would be futile . When you say “evil ” what do you mean by that. Can Ba, Na, Cl. Be evil. Or H2 or O2 or N2, or NaCl, or H2O? What is evil in the sense of a chemical.?
You continue to use math and logic even knowing they can’t be observed, yet you think theses things were invented by men. Man simply discovers what was always there and always true. Things could not {exist and not exist } long before man put that into words.
3) Once again you have judged God  as evil. You have never yet spoken on what standard “you” use to judge anything.
4) your entire line of thought contradicts itself. If we are only chemical or chemical response- HOW can you say that myself or any other Christian is wrong  or evil. You want so badly to say I am only chemical, but every time you judge me or say I am wrong demonstrates you have a ” model” for what (right ) is; are you the model for rightness or are you a chemical. If not. Then who is? 
5) you refuse to acknowledge your pre supposing of No God. 
You certainly have a right to suppose that, but it doesn’t change a thing. You know so much yet are clinging to this pre supposition you can’t know anything for certain, and you can’t account for knowing anything .
6) God’s word says you know. Yet you continue to suppress.
God is patient and long suffering, Jesus Christ died for the ungodly. I urge you to repent believe on The Lord Jesus Christ.
donSent from my iPhone

From: Jessica Cooper  Add to Addresses Block Sender
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Don,
I spent a great deal of time in my last email explaining to you the myriad of standards god has failed to meet. Including but not limited to, the standard set by contemporary secular morality, the standards set for humans in a great number of religious texts including the standards set in the bible. God fails all of them.
Not that that even matters, however, because none of it is real. God is a fantasy you and your cult have made up. He’s as pretend as the unicorn, the boogey man and the ghost busters, the only difference is that the religions that claim he exists have done far more harm to the world than any of the above.
If you truly wish for me to become a “child of god” (despite the fact that that is a grossly infantalizing thing to wish to be) than you (or “god”) must provide me three things. One, evidence that any god exists. Two, evidence that the bible is the word of god. Three, a convincing reason to believe that god is not an evil murderous monster, despite his evil monstrous actions.
These should be things that every rational person asks for before they ascribe to any world view. Yet I doubt that you or any christian can satisfactorily give an answer for even one of these.
When you tell me I ought to thank your imaginary friend for my senses and reasoning, I feel as if I am about to vomit. How dare you imply that I need to thank this imagined monster for the things I was born with? I don’t ask you to thank unicorns or goblins for your arms and legs. That would be patently absurd and stupid, and so, likewise is your implication that I must thank god for the things I have only through millions of years of evolution, the good sense of my parents and the luck to be born and educated where I was.
If you think I’m calling chemical reaction evil, you don’t understand what I’m saying. I’m saying actions can be evil. Your actions are caused by chemicals, carried out by chemicals and conceived of by chemicals. This does not exempt you from responsibility, it just acknowledges that your choices are not spiritual, but practical. They are only possible because of the way your brain works. Your choices have consequences, for yourself and others, that’s what gives them moral value.
You know math and logic are practical and observable. You can have two things, add one and watch it become three. Its not that complicated.
“God’s word” says I know, yet I do not know god exists. Have you considered that “god’s word” might be a fallacious pile of bullshit and lies made up by ancient primitives who couldn’t even read or write?
Jd

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 11:54 PM, Don Karns  wrote:

Hello again,
What you do 
is spend time and words straddling between two worldviews.
You
State God can’t or does not meet your standard, then you deny that God exists and still can’t give a reference what the standard is. 
You state actions can be evil, yet – by who’s standard
( yours, society’s ) ?
You say math and logic can be observed , but only a symbol that represents such can be observed. Can a blind person use his senses and reason and perform math or   Think logically; of course he can all these are simply excuses you offer to explain why you suppress the truth about God. You have all the evidence of God’s existence He has provided. God’s command for you is to repent, change your mind about God and this evidence, not to wait for additional evidence.
You fall into profanity when you profess to be wise, yet you can not find fault in my logical belief in God. I understand you disagree with my belief in God, yet your only citation for fault is that God doesn’t meet your standard. Because you don’t agree with God’s judgement or punishment or because you don’t know God’s reason why He Allows evil, does not mean that God does not have a perfectly logical reason. What you feel is right or wrong is no reflection on God. What man has done in the name of religion  is no reflection on God. God is perfect, you and I and All men are fallen.
The facts are, you do have a knowledge of right wrong good, and evil and this knowledge leaves you accountable and without excuse
If you want to posit that all these standards come from a unicorn then you are no longer an atheist and you also confirm that these standard can not be Accounted for apart from A divine source
I can not change your mind, and what I must tell you is not what you already know but I must tell of the goodness and kindness of God and the salvation and forgiveness He provided for those who receive His Son Jesus Christ by faith.  if you don’ know it now, a moment will come when you see this forgiveness and salvation in Christ’s love as the greatest need you have. Everything you feel you need now will perish with you. Only God’s love and peace with God can transcend death.
I know you Are young and time and eternity are before you, yet you have no guarantee of tomorrow. You would say you know “salt” exists
but even that fails because you can not even account or have assurance that “you” exist, or that I exist. 
I spoke of your becoming a child of God in the sense of being at peace with God who would love you and never forsake you. I was speaking of a Fathers love that would cast out fear and provide comfort in time of need.
Na and Cl have no need of love or comfort , have no longing for a father’s kindness, no thought of life and death. They simply make salt. I know you are more than this. That’s why I love you. Please consider these things , ponder them in you heart. I may be wrong about you but I believe you are a deep thinker. May God be gracious to you.
Don
.
Sent from my iPhone
 

from: Jessica Cooper  Add to Addresses Block Sender
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You want to accuse me of borrowing from your worldview, but you fail to realize that I have explained to you about a thousand times exactly where I get my standards from. There are thousands of standards in the world and the God of the bible fails to be moral by just about every one of them. 

Math and Logic can be observed by a blind person because they have nothing at all to do with vision and everything to do with verification of how the universe works. For example, you can hold two coins in your hand without seeing them, and know that it is one more coin than only holding one coin in your hand. Simple. Your senses provide you with information about the universe. Only a person with no senses at all (i.e. a dead person) is incapable of comprehending logic or math, because they have no way of understanding the relationship between verifiable reality and their own thoughts. mostly because they have no way of verifying reality at all. 
God cannot command me when he doesn’t exist.I never “professed to be wise,” yet  I’m at the very least able to understand that the story told by the bible has no internal consistency, morality, or value, and no external validity at all. Your insistence upon not thinking for yourself, and doing nothing but obeying this mythical figure should be a source of shame for you. You are capable of determining what is right and wrong, you are capable of finding any of the many internal contradictions in the bible. You’re not stupid, you’re just being held back by blind obedience to a myth. 
I obviously don’t believe these standards come from a unicorn, I’ve made it clear that standards arise from a myriad of cultural psychological, sociological and evolutionary factors, not from a magic standard-giver. I used the unicorn as an example of something that we could claim we got our morality from, but have no evidence for (just like god). Even if I did believe they came from a unicorn (I DON’T) I would still be an atheist. I still wouldn’t believe in God, I would just believe in something else that’s also stupid (unicorns). 
In regard to your bullshit conversion tactics. I’m not afraid of your imaginary friend, I don’t respect him and I don’t think he’s real. You insist on continuing to threaten me with imaginary torture. You should know that I find that about as scary/ convincing as a young child telling me that he has a pet dragon that’s going to set me on fire. I have already pretty well demonstrated that your imaginary god is NOT good, I’ve already demonstrated that I think faith is a terrible way to make decisions about the world, so I very much hope that I am never foolish enough to “see this forgiveness and salvation in Christ’s love as the greatest need you have.” I actually find that to be quite a disgusting and childish thing to want. I have no need for kindness from an imaginary father figure. I actually already have a great Dad, a Dad who lets me think for myself, and have my own opinions and never THREATENS TO TORTURE ANYONE. My Dad is awesome and nice and kind. He has never killed a child or tortured someone or allowed me to come to harm when he could have prevented it. My dad punishes temporary crimes with temporary punishments, not eternal ones. Most importantly, my dad doesn’t try to control me now that I’m an adult, he respects that I’m my own person, and doesn’t try to force his beliefs on me. In short, my dad is not an asshole and a criminal. Your god is. You don’t love me. Love is not threats or coercion, Love is acceptance and adaptation and affection. I think the saddest part of your religion is that you’re so screwed up that you don’t even know what love is. 
Sincerely hoping you escape this cult, 
JD

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:56 AM, Don Kans wrote:

Greetings, and why so hostile, most of what I said was in response to 
Your claims
You said math was observable and we could watch its effects.
You continue to claim society as the foundation for the standards which define morality, while knowing there are countless society’s. which is right   -and why , and what does it mean to be right? Was Stalin, Nietzsche, hitler, Darwin right? By what standard are they right- or wrong ? What about you.
You claim to live within a society that has prescribed right and wrong. You declare your innate ability to Know right from wrong. How are you doing? Have you called other liars and thieves? Have you been disgusted when you see the strong taking advantage of the weak. Well then, how often have you lied or stolen or taken advantage of the weak. Why do you accuse others and then make excuses for yourself . Look around. Much of the world agrees with you. Wake up. Don’t leave your purse lie around or your door unlocked or walk in strange neighborhoods after dark.
God has commanded all men not only to love  God, but to love their neighbor and love their enemy yet you find this teaching evil and disgusting. You claim to have functional senses and reasoning yet you have no model by which to validate these. You trust that if you agree with this society you must be right, yet you know that no society is right( in a perfect sense). So which then is your model? anything and everything you know about the universe came from your sense and reasoning and was filtered by your presuppositions of no God. 
I have never threatened you by any standard, unless you have a unique definition of threaten. From the first I have spoken of my
Love for you and all men and women, regardless of who they are or what they believe. When you state falsely my feelings,this is a demonstration of a hatred you have.  You have demonstrated nothing as regards to God. You use the sense and reasoning He gave you, you breathe the air He provides, you live in the universe He created, And you are restrained in a way that you can only do what He allows, and you rail against Him. I acknowledge I can not change your mind, but I pray that God would. You would have me escape from my reality, when the truth is God has given me life and purpose and reason to live. It is great to have loving parents  and friends, but sadly you will find that they have an appointed time to live and then they are gone. Like I said, only the love of Christ is without end. Please know this, you exist within the universe God created, and as a prophet once said, ” if I go unto the highest heaven God is there and if I make my bed in hell God is there, if I could fly to the far end of the earth, God is still there ” I urge you to read the bible again and see the consistent theme there. We as mankind are fallen, God has made a way we can be restored. And Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him. I continue to pray for you,
don.
 Sent from my iPhone

  From: Jessica Cooper Add to Addresses Block Sender
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I’ve shown you very clearly how phenomenon like math and logic are observable, through all our senses, not just our sight. You’ve failed to refute that. 

I’ve shown you very clearly that there are many varied measures of reality, each of them fails to show god to be moral. You condemn me for the very few indiscretions you assume I make, yet you believe that human sacrifice will wash away your sins. I make amends to individuals when I feel I’ve wronged them, and I do my best not to wrong anyone. Which of us is moral?
You once again claim that my morality is simply “agreement with society” It’s not. It’s a complicated network of moral duties to other humans. I don’t need a book to tell me that it’s wrong to violate the autonomy of another person, or take for myself the property they’ve acquired. I’d like to point out that my system of morality prohibits slavery and rape, and yours does not. 
Moving right along, You’ve threatened me with hell. Don’t deny it. You’ve done it in person, to my face, and also here in these emails. don’t presume that you haven’t. 
The god you say exists has not been demonstrated in any way, I owe him no favors, since, by all reasonable accounts he’s a myth. I’m not angry at you, and I don’t hate you. I pity you immensely. It makes my sick to my very core that these delusions have so preverted your idea of what love is.  It’s very sad. 
You haven’t addressed the clear fact that my human father, in your mind, nothing but a mere man, is a better, more moral, and more loving person than your god. Your position is deplorable. It’s the wish to be a slave eternally to a master who will never die, and will never free you. I can take a certain amount of comfort in the fact that you will not really be forced to live that life, since it is a fiction, but I can’t imagine how horrible it is to believe it. 
JD

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 7:46 AM, don Karns  wrote:

Sorry, about the long pause, I have been traveling much.
You have been very sincere and passionate about what you believe.
You have shown me nothing except how much you are determined to use your senses and reasoning to explain a world in which you are the center. And in a sense to justify why you worship and serve the creation ( self ) and not the creator. And you are without excuse for doing so.
The world has meaning, and words have meaning. In every letter I have spoken of love, and yet you continue to accuse me of threats.
This is not an argument I am trying to win.
You exist in the universe God created. Although you suppress that knowledge now, God has a plan for you. I don,t know what His plan is or whether it will end well for you, or if you will be judged – by God- . But, And I pray for you.  it won’t be  that no one told you of how God demonstrated  His love. Jesus died for the ungodly: after living perfectly He suffered and died and was raised from the dead. In Each reply I have presented you with the invitation God offers to you to be reconciled to God.
To be a slave of Christ is to be purchase by His blood, and that His love is shed abroad in our heart.
To be a slave of your self, your passions, your sin, is to live consumed with trying to please, satisfy, indulge your self. And it will Never do. It will simply.lead to an end unsatisfied, lost, without hope.
Everything you hold dear will one day be gone. It is great to hear how loving your mom and dad are, and how pleased you are with your life. But a moment will come when you pass from life to death, sad and scary, yet true. And none of these will be a comfort.
I don’t love God because He scares me or forces me. I love God because He loved me first, even when i was spiritually dead in my sins and trespasses, He is worthy, He is love.
Don

  From: Jessica Cooper  Add to Addresses Block Sender
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 11:33 AM
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Don,

A world in which I am the center? That’s some twisted logic right there. You’re the one who insists that you were specially created by god and chosen by him to go to a place of eternal paradise after your life, yet you suggest that I’m the one who thinks I’m the center of the universe? That’s silliness. I recognize what I actually am, a human being who is the culmination of millions of years of natural processes, who has only a very short time on earth to make a worthwhile life. You want to believe that you’re a special creation of an imaginary father who owns and controls the entire universe.  That’s believing you’re the center of the world.
Also, slavery is wrong. I don’t care if it’s slavery to a deity or a person, I don’t care what the bible says. It’s wrong. Your compulsion to be owned and enslaved by an eternal deity who assigns eternal punishments to temporary transgressions, who threatens disobedience with torture, and who will punish you for thought crime is grotesque. 
You accuse me of worshipping myself. I don’t worship at all, so that’s a bit silly in and of itself. But also, it’s extremely hypocritical for the god that you project and pretend exists is simply yourself. You project your wants and fears onto him, in your mind he hates the things you hate, loves the things you love, agrees with you in your conflicts. You’re worshiping the image of yourself. I’m not worshipping at all. 
Once again you deny making threats. It’s a load of crap and you know it. Hell is a threat. Telling me your imaginary friend is going to hurt me is a threat.
 I think the most disappointing thing about these conversations is your perverted idea of what love really is. I’m going to walk you through this one very carefully, because it seriously worries me that you don’t know how this most fundamental and important of human emotions works. One: You cannot love someone who you also fear. That’s the very basis of an abusive and unhealthy relationship. Two: You cannot love someone who you view as subordinate or less than equal to you. Love is about equality and truth and mutual understanding. People who are in love recognize that they both have merit, that they both are flawed, and they work to become better together. Three: Threats are never a part of a loving relationship. Never. If you’re ever in a relationship with a real person who threatens you, that’s the sort of relationship you need to remove yourself from. Four: The fundamental principal of love is mutual respect. Respect cannot be mutual if one person is inherently subordinate and has no value outside of the relationship.  And Five, love is not controlling. If a person you were dating tried to force you to behave a certain way, eat certain things, wear certain clothes, speak and act in the way that require, that person is an abuser, not a lover. I’ve linked you to an article on domestic violence (http://www.helpguide.org/articles/abuse/domestic-violence-and-abuse.htm) See how many abuse warning signs god fits in your life. 
You have shown no evidence for any of your factual claims, and your claims about the spiritual are all deeply saddening and horrible when examined with the least bit of scrutiny. I feel deeply sorry for you. At it’s core, your beliefs are just… pathetic. I hope you don’t waste your life on this, I hope even more that you’re happy with the life you have now, because it’s the only one you’re guaranteed to get. Good luck,

 

 On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Don Karns  wrote:

Hello again
1) what I have said about God, mankind, And salvation is based on the word of God and His authority
2) all you have said is based on your god and your authority – your self. Maybe You choose which rev of which textbook you read to believe, maybe you don’t read and simply make this stuff up. In either case, for you to be in authority is what I mean by worshipping creation. 
3) your dissertation on love is a perfect example. Is this 
Your standard of love? Are you….. The standard of what love is? Really?
4) You have the emails and they have not threatened 
but have told of Gods love
5) I don’t think I waste my time sharing the truth about Jesus Christ with you I don’t think I waste my time praying for you. Because I don’t think you are
A waste of time.
 I don’t know how many others pray for you. Or how many others sincerely want to see you in heaven. But I do.
By the authority of Gods Word I Leave you with this 
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient, love is kind. 
Love does not envy, 
is not boastful, is not conceited, 
does not act improperly, 
is not selfish, is not provoked, 
and does not keep a record of wrongs. 
Love finds no joy in unrighteousness 
but rejoices in the truth. 
It bears all things, believes all things, 
hopes all things, endures all things. 
Love never ends. 
God is love
And He demonstrated love in this 
While we were sinners
Jesus Christ died for us.
 
Don
 
 

Sent from my iPhone

From: Jessica Cooper Add to Addresses Block Sender
Date: Monday, November 3, 2014 6:57 PM
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God isn’t patient or kind, as evidenced by the millions of people (including infants) that he murders in the bible, many of whom never did a single thing to wrong him. He is of course envious, HIS NAME MEANS JEALOUS IN HEBREW! He’s totally boastful and conceited, Hence the First three commandments are all regarding his vanity.The rest of the verse is simply platitudes to distract from how utterly hypocritical it is to say that god exemplifies the type of love it describes. I never said you thought I was a waste of time.  I wonder why you bring it up so much? Lastly, hypocritical nonsense is hypocritical nonsense whether it comes from an earthy despot or a heavenly one, If you want to pretend to be a slave to master who abuses you, that’s your choice. However, I feel obligated to inform you, as a person who cares deeply about human life and it’s potential, that you are wasting the one life you have on fairy tales. And not very nice fairy tales at that.
 

On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Don Karns  wrote:

Hello again, I have finished traveling for a while, and have come home to rest and to seek The Lord.
1) you continue to use the sense and reasoning God has given to mankind to rail against Him.
You speak of sense and nonsense.
 By the thoughts you cling to, what makes – sense- is determined by each individual, or if you prefer many individuals in a culture. However if what I believe in, or the culture in which I live is different, it is not non sense. Only  different sense.
 The same with morality. The morals observed in Arabia are simply different, and so you can not speak of them being wrong, only different. Even if they treat females different.
The holocaust to you was different.
Love to you is different.
I have 3 children. They are All older than you. And because I love them I would tell them “no”, or discipline them when they were behaving in unloving or unsafe ways.
True love warns of imminent peril. I wouldn’t stand by and let someone jump into a fire .
God didn’t stand by to let men perish. He took on flesh, lived without sin, and died on a cross for someone who was deserving of nothing but to perish. He was resurrected to be the firstborn- raised from death, so that now the life I live by faith in Him
You continue to say I am wasting my life. But I continue to respond that if my life is spent telling people about the goodness and kindness of God, and about how He demonstrated His character and His love in redeeming His people, I am not wasting my life, but spending my life for Christ. I would gladly count all else as no account so that I might know Jesus Christ and the power of His resurrection.
Men love all kinds of things 
Money, fame, beer, drugs, self, sex, power.
God created us a living soul, so that we could live Him and honor Him. 
Of course He is jealous when we love all the things of creation and not the creator. All these things have only death to offer.
They will never satisfy, they will never be enough, They will end in death.
God offers life through Jesus Christ. Maybe not the kind of life and maybe not the kind of love you speak of. But He offers a love that never fails. All these other things will fail, and if you are not careful, sometimes people get to a state where they become consumed attempting to satisfy themselves and strive to get
More and more of whatever they emotionally feel will fulfill their desires . I continue to pray that God would show you His truth. I Said last time, this is not a argument I am trying to win.
I am praying that God  would show you what He showed a man 1550 years ago:
Thou has made us for thyself,
And our heart is restless,
Until it finds rest in thee.
 
Only God can grant repentance and faith, and He does it by His grace,
Or if you prefer it could be called gratuitous love,
Not because we are lovable
Or attractive or righteous, but just to demonstrate who He is.
donSent from my iPhone

From: Jessica Cooper  Add to Addresses Block Sender
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2014 6:44 PM
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I’m so unbelievably used to hearing this form evangelicals. As soon as I point out that your god does not fit the standard the bible sets for love or morality, you jump straight into the “oh it’s just MY faith” “it’s my kind of love” “Jesus’s love doesn’t have to follow the laws of the holy book I believe in.” That’s a load of bullshit. 

You always want to make out like atheists live in “sin” because we don’t believe in the same fairy tales you do. You bring up “beer and drugs” like you think that’s the sort of thing I use to cope with my separation from God. Guess what? I’ve never had more than a single beer in one sitting. The only drugs I ever took were prescribed by my doctor to manage pain from surgery, and I took them when I was eight. Get off your moral high horse for a minute and LISTEN. If you would stop accusing me of sin for five damn minutes and listen to what I’m actually saying you’d realize that I’m trying to HELP YOU. 
There are massive chunks of your emails, especially this last one that are so disjointed and chaotic that I can’t even understand what the hell you’re talking about. You keep saying you don’t care about winning this argument, presumably to shield your ego from the fact that you can’t win this argument. Further, despite saying in your very last email that love is not jealous, you consider to insist that god is love, and jealous. And then you try to defend god for his monstrous and petty jealousy. What is wrong with you? Why would you defend this monster? You condemn other evil jealous mass murderers, why not condemn this one? Are you so afraid of a finite life that you can’t acknowledge the truth about the god you obsess over? 
You have to admit that if your god is not real, you are wasting the only life you had on harassing young people. I’m trying to help you out. There’s no evidence that your god exists and if this is the only life you have, you’re going to leave behind a legacy of hate speech and intolerance. Why would you want that? Further, if your god really does exist and does love humanity, and is “good,” why would he condemn anyone for disbelieving, or for not proselytizing? If he would condemn you for something that innocent, he’s an evil monster. Why would you ever want to worship an evil deity. I would rather burn eternally in hell than I would worship a god who would condemn me for my disbelief. I say this because I have standards. I would not support an evil murderous dictator on earth. I would not worship one in heaven. 
I sincerely wish you and your children good luck,
JD

From: Jessica Cooper <cooperj3600a@gmail.com> Add to Addresses Block Sender
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2014 9:31 PM
To: Don Karns <snrak@cox.net> Add to Addresses
Subject: Re: Thanks for your comment
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On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 8:20 PM, Don Karns wrote:

We return to your wanting proof and evidence of God ‘s existence. Proof and evidence presuppose truth. There is No proof or evidence without truth. 
As a Christian, I can account for truth as being from divine revelation. Apart from God you can not account for truth, yet you continue to present yourself as someone who knows —–( truth?). A review of these messages would reveal that it is you,
Who is intolerant and hateful.
I reject your claim of ignorance of God, knowing that   God has been revealed to you the same as all mankind, yet you suppress the truth. Proof and evidence would not cause you to worship God. You worship and serve the creature, not the creator. The reason I don’t attempt to win arguments is because you are in the universe God created, using your sense and reasoning which God has given to no other creature on earth, and there is no escape. If you go to heaven God is there and if you make your bed in hell God is there.
No one will be judged by the God they didn’t know 
They will be judged by the God they know and suppressed the truth about.
No one is cast into hell for not believing in God.
Men are judged for their words thoughts and deeds. Men are punished for their sin against a good God.
1 God rules by decree
By His decree, the wages of sin is death. There is no injustice in this , there is no evil in this. All men Want justice. Surely you don’t want bad men roaming the streets. Maybe it is just your definition of what bad men are. All of mankind was made for the glory of God, all of mankind has fallen short of God’s glory , through sin, meaning we are all deserving of our wage.
By God’s decree, the gift of God is eternal life. Through Jesus Christ. There is no injustice in this for Jesus died for His people. How strange that you would call this evil. 
Moral atheism was popular before WW1, but after WW2 not many were espousing it. Look around, the character of mankind without Christ is on display.
Survival of the fittest is the mantra of the world. Love your neighbor, love your enemy is the teaching of Jesus. Left to ourselves by nature we can not follow his teaching. But He saves so that we become like Him and not like the world.
There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. Jesus died for the ungodly.
DonSent from my iPhone

From: Jessica Cooper  Add to Addresses Block Sender
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2014 9:31 PM
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Bullshit. I’m sorry, but that’s some serious bullshit right there. Read through that last email, see if you find a fact that can actually be affirmed, then email back. That wasn’t even a response to what I said, it’s just word vomit. 

Final note, Jessica is not unique on today’s college campus. Students there quickly come to believe in atheistic moralism, demonstrating hypocrisy, in their tolerance of everything except the Christian worldview. Thre is a great need of the Gospel on the American college campus. The contemporary Christian campus ministries are only tolerated if they will not confront the idololatry and sin on campus, and present the Gospel as a social or self help improvement group. The truth is, Jesus calls us to deny ourself, to pick up our cross daily and follow Him. His warning is clear, ” Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so did their fathers to the false prophets.”  The staff at most universities are not permitted to share their faith in Christ. I encourage all true Christians to pray for young people today, and if possible share the truth of the Gospel  with them through conversation or a Gospel tract. This is the next generation. May God hear the prayers of His people and do a work that only He can accomplish.

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